Episode 25: Donna Symanietz, From Sales to Site
Donna Symanietz has a wealth of experience in medical sales and has trained colleagues, patients, nurses, and physicians on new treatment options and skills with new medical devices and pharmaceuticals.
In this episode we discuss her transition in to clinical research, what sites can learn from sales and I unsuccessfully try to convince her to open her own site.
+Full Episode Transcript
Brad: All right, Donna. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. How are you doing?
Donna: I'm doing great. Thank you.
Brad: Awesome. Awesome. As always, uh, I like to, you know, hear people's origin stories, uh, when it comes to clinical research and a little bit about what their experience has been like, uh, the road they took to get there. So tell us a little bit about, uh, your experience in clinical research and kind of your road to it.
Donna: All right. Thanks Brad. I probably come from a different pathway, but I actually consider my path very parallel to somebody who's just starting in clinical research. I started off in pharmaceutical sales, medical device, capital equipment sales. And when I first started with my very first job long, long time ago, I remember we had a location that was part of some post-marketing research. I remember the day I touched the binder and I was excited and I loved hearing about the post-market research though that my, one of my physicians that I called on was doing and I, his engagement with it was great. And he just sent me on a journey that I loved research. I loved reading all the clinical papers that went around with all the drugs or devices that I sold. I have such a passion with taking those, those clinical studies apart and understanding every tiny little detail, no matter how boring it is, because that's what set one drug or one device apart from the other.And we needed to know every little, tiny bit about our drug and our competitor's drug to have informed, intelligent conversations with our physicians, to take them on a journey on why to write a different drug for some of their patients and having that patient in the forefront of our minds all the time was really important to express it to physicians that this is why I'm here, I'm here for your patients. I'm here for them and help with their medical care. And later in my career, I was able to be involved with some more post-marketing research, even if it was just getting physicians to have patients fill out surveys and back in the day, fax them in was really important and I enjoyed it. Um, and then one of my last positions, actually, I was involved with feasibility of locations and seeing how they were doing with their good clinical practices there. Just seeing how they were doing with enrollment and listening to all their challenges and kind of being a little cheerleader for them and saying, Hey, don't give up and please fill out the paperwork correctly because we need that data. Um, so I was a comic relief and a beggar at the same time to keep them engaged in doing the tiny little bits that it takes for all the clinical research wow Brad, that was a really long answer.
Brad: That's okay. That's uh, I mean, again, it sounds like you're, uh, you know, kind of hitting all the, all the points, there were clinical research, the attention to detail, the, you know, sort of, uh, patient centricity and, you know, all those, all those nice things that we look for, you know, and, and working within the clinical research field. So where does that leave you now? Or are you looking to, we're looking now to get sort of back or more focused into the clinical research industry, is that correct?
Donna: Correct. I really wanted to take my, all the knowledge that I have from sales marketing past clinical research and help move clinical research forward. It sounds like a cheesy little salesy answer, but it's the truth. I have such a passion for the research that I want to do more. I know a lot of research doesn't have the most robust data or the enrollment, and I want to help, I guess, just, I want to help. So with COVID and all the changes, the things that have happened, um, I realized that from me as a person, there's better opportunities in research. And, but it also allows me to tap into my passion of research, not just the sales and marketing part of it.
Brad: Sure, sure. Well, I mean, ultimately, I mean, that's why we all do what we do. We're all here to continue to move research and science forward as well as improve patient outcomes. I mean, that's, uh, hopefully that's, what's driving everybody who's in the industry too, to a large degree, I guess. Tell me a little about your, your hunt. How has your luck been looking for how to get back into the industry or how to sort of change your focus within the clinical research industry?
Donna: It's been a little challenging. Um, people think that, you know, they think sales and marketing I'm really, I'm not a used car salesman. Okay. You know, people think it's a four letter word and it's really not. I'm more of a communicator. I am, I'm a teacher, I'm a coach. I can bring teams together. I get the trust of physicians, patients, clinic teams, and bring them together. Because if you don't have a good team, you can't always meet an objective in a clinical setting or an or setting.
Brad: Yeah. And I think that's a, I mean, you touched on something there. I think there, there tends to be a sort of, you know, sales is a bad word in clinical research or tends to be, uh, you know, of course I think that's ridiculous. I think that the sites and the studies I've worked on that are usually the most successful, we do incorporate those, those aspects of sales, which the relationship building and the, uh, all the different parts that you mentioned that go along with that. I mean, you can't, you can't run a successful trial without having a good relationship and trust and engagement with the, uh, your physician much, much less the patients. I mean, those are ridiculously, I think under stated and under-appreciated aspects when it comes to clinical research, especially from the site perspective. And that's where I think, you know, again, it's, you know, sad in some ways that there's such a, I don't know, it's a sales is a four letter, four letter word, you know,
Donna: And it's not, I mean, my husband's in sales too. Trust me. We're problem-solvers every day. I mean, he goes, I don't sell, I problem solve all day long for my customers.
Brad: Well, and that's, that's exactly right. And I can say as a, you know, somebody who's running dozens of studies across dozens of sites or not running them, but having, you know, some level of involvement. I mean, that's, that's what it is. It's constant problem solving. I mean, that's what makes it fun too though, you know?
Donna: Yeah. And that, I know it's, it's a challenge. It's, it's a big, uh, it's not really a big change for me. I mean, I know so many different disease states, different drugs. I mean, comorbid conditions that you can't have. And I know it's cytochrome P four 50 means and pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics. I know that's just in my DNA. I love that part of it. And for me to understand his disease state, it's, it comes really quickly and naturally, because we've always had to learn them on a fly and learn them quickly. We always were thrown in the deep end of the pool here. You're selling this drug now, learn it in three weeks, go. Um, and we got it. I got good at it. And the part that I always loved was like I said, the, the clinical papers and taking them apart and seeing, seeing how medicine is changing. I think people forget to look at history of medicine, even just look, think about like insulin, how it has changed for started off. We used to get it from pigs. And now there is combination in insulin. There's different blood glucose testing that everybody can wear on their, on their body and put their phone up to it, to see what their blood sugars are. I'm just excited to see how what's next around the corner, because I add, I guarantee you there's something great, wonderful, just around the corner that we haven't even heard of. And that's where I want to put my skills and my attention to detail to use in my passion.
Brad: Sure. No, no, there's no doubt. And again, that's, that's the beauty of the industry. I think that, uh, whatever your, wherever your interests lie, there's a place in clinical research, you know, whether it be in the, you know, the technical science or whether it be in the relationship building sort of sales side or, you know, the, the history or altogether, you know, that's the beauty, I think again, is that there's a, there's a place within the industry for all of those interests and they all sort of dovetail together. And I think the more complete you are in those, you know, the, the more successful you're ultimately going to be.
Donna: Yeah. Thank you.
Brad: That's the hope, isn't it? I mean, that's what we all hope for. I mean, that's, again, that's why we do what we do is it's, you know, aside from helping people, just the fascination that goes into it. So I know I find, uh, your, your situation to be particularly interesting. I mean, again, I think a lot of people start at a site level with a hope to go to either like a, a sponsor CRO or even the sales side, ultimately. And your, your experience you have, like you said, you've had some experience with obviously post-market trials. Uh, but it sounds like you really, your focus now is leaning more towards the research side versus the sales. So again, I find that particularly intriguing again, I think this will be something that's instructive for a lot of people to see you kind of go through that process. What sort of, um, if any, I guess, you know, have you been reaching out to site side or sponsor CRO side, or sort of, where is, where are you in that, in that process right now,
Donna: I've kind of reached out a little bit of everything. I've even reached out to some of the old physicians that I've worked with in the past. But, but even before I started looking, I took a course with clinical research, fast track to kind of basically put everything in order for me in how clinical research is ran. I mean, I know the FDA rules inside out, I mean, standard operating procedures. Oh my gosh, try standard operating procedures have a sales and marketing team. There are a lot tougher. And then I also just recently took a course from clinical trials network on GCPS. I just want to make sure I'm buttoned up and ready to go. And then when I do have conversations with, you know, possible career sites, I understand kind of where they're coming from and they understand where I'm coming from and how we can, you know, be successful together and how I will add value to their teams.
Brad: Well, I mean, it sounds like, you know, with your background and if you've been through the clinical research fastrack program, which I've talked to a lot of people who have, and, uh, people really seem to vouch, you know, for, for how, you know, comprehensive and great that that program is. I mean, it sounds like you've, you're going to have all the tools, you know, and also again, coming from that sales background, I think just makes it, uh, even more, more powerful as, as far as what your, you know, your capabilities and what you bring to the table and look, Hey, I'm biased, man. I'll, I'll tell everybody you should start your own site. You know, if you're able, if you've got the connections, uh, go out there, find a physician to work with and, you know, start hustling up some studies and, uh, uh, options start to become almost limitless, you know, at that point. Uh, and, and you really get to have a hand in the whole process, you know, from beginning to end. I mean, that's, uh, is that, uh, an option that, that you've considered?
Donna: I kind of did, I had a conversation with a physician actually the other day about it too, but unfortunately he did recently moved to Nevada and I'm like, dude, can you move back please? Because he's wants to retire, but doesn't want to retire kind of situation. And he would have been a great partner to do something like that. I think I first want to go out and work at a site in a location, and then maybe that's something that I would explore. Um, a lot of the physicians that I know already are in research at the Mayo clinic, university of Minnesota or other major institutions, and I'm like, how can I pull those guys away to do my own site?
Brad: Right. Yeah. That can be tricky. I mean, you know, for me, it started out with, you know, private practice, uh, physicians. I mean, I think that there's a lot of physicians out there who, you know, if they're not affiliated with a university or a hospital system, I mean, they want to do research. They love the ability to do research. The problem is they don't know anything about it. They don't know how to get started. It seems like, eh, an exorbitant costs to get up off the ground, but that's where a highly motivated individual with a, you know, some knowledge can, uh, step in and provide a solution and, uh, really create a niche for themselves, you know?
Donna: Oh yeah. I agree. I think physicians don't even actively become involved in research because they look at their day to day. I have 35 patients I have to see how do I have time to do all these other things? And that's where having a good team and somebody who's good at organizing things would help them or even, yeah, they just can't comprehend how to do it. They have the passion for it, but the path is very unclear. And I think that's a short siding aspect of research is that there is not a place for some of these physicians who want to do it part-time or do it part of their daily practice. And to explore that, just think if we had 10% more physicians involved in clinical research, just 10% across the country.
Brad: Yeah. Yeah. That would make a significant impact for sure.
Donna: Or even 1%. I mean, it's just looking at those little bits and that's probably from my training is you don't eat an elephant one bite. You have to work at it a little by little by little and getting these, getting more physicians involved in clinical research. Oh, I would totally jump on that bandwagon and try to help and guide them to a clearer path on how to be more engaged.
Brad: Sure. Yeah. And that's a, yeah, it's a tall order. It's a, uh, but it's something that needs to be done. I mean, I think there's, there's no question that there's still just a lack of good engaged physicians. Uh, well, I take that back. There's not a lack of engaged physicians. There's just a lack of engaged physicians who have the research infrastructure who are doing it right. And doing it well. So yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of opportunity out there. Uh, I mean, do you feel like it's been challenging to find a place with your, with your background to assess sort of where to where to fit into, to everything from the, you know, sort of the bigger picture?
Donna: Yes, absolutely. Um, it has been, um, like I said, I'm afraid there's maybe some stigmatism of my knowledge or lack of, but there isn't, um, my transferable skills and soft skills are very shiny and bright and ready to get going
Brad: Well. And again, I think that's sort of a, uh, unfortunate trend, uh, across some research sites and some other institutions is, uh, not taking the chance on people who don't have the more traditional clinical research experience. And, you know, I know this is something that we talked about a little bit offline, so, you know, I very much prefer to hire based on soft skills. I mean, you can train somebody on how to, you know, check some boxes and perform data entry and do, you can teach them ICH, GCP guidelines. Uh, all those things are fairly, you know, dry and straightforward things, you know, that can be, you know, easily taught and transferred to someone, but you can't train somebody to, you know, build strong relationships with your physician in order to get the best engagement. You can't train somebody to build trust and relationship with patients so that they are comfortable being in a trial, uh, that you will be a part of or that, uh, or retain them, you know, over the long-term, uh, or, you know, going back to just enrollment, you know, some getting on the phone and calling a hundred people so that you might be able to get two patients in the door and you know, this, uh, someone in sales, I'm sure that's something you're more than used to.
Donna: You have to have a thick skin. This is for sure. And you can't give up and a no is just a no, right this second, you know, you have to move on. Um, I guess we always thought in the future and you just keep digging at it and you keep working for it. And just because one person says, no, you don't, you can't stop and cry in your cereal. You got to keep going because that's how you move the needle forward. Yeah,
Brad: No, that's, that's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, if you stopped the first, no, then you that'd be it, that's it for you. Yeah. You gotta, you keep moving
Donna: And you have to, I mean, it's, it's in my DNA and then you take it with grace too. When they say no, don't get all Crabby. You take it with grace and move on. And then you, when you find the next one, build that relationship, get them to understand who you are, that you're a human being on the other end of the line that you actually care. Yes. I'm going to ask you a thousand questions that you probably don't want to answer, but that's part of it. And people don't see that or know that in human behavior alone, it's, it's something that some people naturally have or it's cultivated. And, but it takes years and years to build that thick skin.
Brad: Yeah, no, I mean, that's a hundred percent true. I consider myself very much an introvert, you know, whether or not people believe that, but even doing a podcast or calling patients over the phone is something that, you know, I had to sort of practice myself into being comfortable doing, you know, uh, not something that necessarily comes super natural for me. So, I mean, that's, that's a point, well taken that you've got to, you've got to cultivate that if, if it's not something that it's already comes naturally.
Donna: Yeah. I'm grateful that I have the gift for gab.
Brad: Yeah. We'll say, Hey, I can go off on a rant, but again, I'm a, I'm a, I'm just a naturally introverted guy. So, you know, being, being salesy can be tricky for me, but I think that when you, especially when it's something that you stand behind, you know, working in clinical research and being able to offer, you know, potentially new treatments to patients or help a doctor be able to offer new options to their patients. I mean, that's something I stand behind. So it's very easy, very easy to talk about and to sell, you know?
Donna: Yeah. It's not sometimes just talking about it. It's also about listening to them, listening to what the patient's saying, listening to what the physician is saying and bringing it together. But it, because God gave us two ears and one mouth, you got to use them in that proportion when you're dealing with patients or a team or a physician, a pharmacist, anybody. And I always feel like if you have the ability to ask the right question, you're lucky because if you ask the right questions, you can get them to talk and get them to really connect with you. And so they belong in, stay in your study, or they're willing to take that extra effort to fill out a survey or get a physician to spend a little extra time with you explaining something to you better. Or, but you have to take a breath and kind of listen at the same time when you're trying to be supportive.
Brad: Sure. Yeah. I mean that, that, that can be a trick sometimes, but I mean, it's, it's what has to be done. So yeah, no, I'm with you a hundred percent there. Uh, tell me a little bit about, you know, uh, some resources that you use, uh, you know, or things you've used in the past that you think might be useful to our listeners or people within even the clinical research community.
Donna: Well, One of the books that I've read in my career was thinking clockwise because the reason why you have to think clockwise and think forward all the time, because things are going to change all around you all the time, but you can't stop the clock and dwell in it. You just got to move forward, understand what's going on and try not to get brought down from that. And I think even when you're interviewing a patient or you're working with a physician, you know, or your clinical trial changes, you just got to undertake it and then move forward. The book thinking clockwise always has these nice little field notes. Like you don't have to read the whole book, the whole book you can read in like a day, but when you open up the book, they have these little field notes. And sometimes they're just little examples of an inspirational thing that you might need to hear right then and there. Um, and so I think it's always on my desk and no matter where I've been in my career.
Brad: Yeah. And I, I mean, I think that's, uh, I mean, I love that. So I, I've worked across different research institutions, you know, throughout my career. And I've worked in places that, you know, they've done things the same way for 15 years, you know, blows my mind. But what I found to be successful is that to kind of go back to your point about, you know, always moving forward, but also always evolving and refining your process, you know, as you move forward. I mean, uh, obviously there are some things from clinical research that are always, must remain consistent, you know, consent process and things along those lines. But, uh, some of your other things, you know, like they require a certain level of self-awareness so that you can change them on the fly and be opportunistic and be less concerned with being consistent and more concerned with doing what works best. Uh, and again, I think it was something I've seen across, you know, a lot of, sort of more established institutions. Uh, so I mean, I think that's, you know, to speak to your point, that's a huge, again, sort of, uh, undervalued characteristic that sometimes lacking in, in clinical research, especially at the site level. So I think that's a very poignant point that you make there. I like that.
Donna: Well, honestly, I think that what I'm doing now for years for now is going to, could save someone's life, you know, could impact someone greatly. If you're working a new oncology drug, I know it's boring and, or I don't know, mundane fill out the same sheet every single day, but that consistency is the foundation to move things forward too. But it also the foundation to open up creativity. You never know what one person's blood pressure is going to tell you about that drug,
Brad: Right? No, exactly one. And even then the, this sort of, you've got the, you know, the mundane of the paperwork, but then you've got the creative side of like, how can we engage more patients? How can we, and again, going back to this as something, it could be saving lives. So while we owe it to ourselves to continue to evolve so that we can include more people who may be positively affected by this, or, or not, you know, or, you know, at least get the data to determine whether or not that it is, but, you know, if you sort of stuck in the same rut and not, not looking ahead and not moving forward, then you know, you're, what are you, what are you really doing?
Donna: Right. Yeah. I mean, I've sold drugs that were taken off the market that maybe shouldn't have been taken off the market. I've sold drugs that should have been, never made it to market. So I see that big picture of it on why things are so important, but that's my ability to look at the horizon. But at the same time you still have to deal with what's right in front of you.
Brad: Yep. Nope. I could couldn't say it any better myself. Well, anything else you want to add, uh, before we sort of start to wrap up here,
Donna: Any other suggestions you can give me or advice you want to give me as someone who's entering this journey and who's really excited and has the knowledge,
Brad: You know, I mean, I would say to certainly keep, uh, reaching out as much as possible across, uh, you know, as many networks as you can. I mean, I, LinkedIn is just ripe with people in the clinical research industry as I'm sure, you know, I think that's where we originally connected. Probably correct. I would certainly keep working those connections. You know, I started out as a research associate one or research assistant one, basically doing data entry at a, at a local university. Uh, I know that's probably, you know, you're, you're well beyond that being a somewhere where you want to be, but you know, your, your universities are oftentimes good. I, I honestly think you would thrive best in a more private institution or a private, uh, research group, just because frankly, I feel like your skills may be lost on some of the bigger institutions, if that makes sense at the end. I think, I think they sometimes undervalue that what your background is, could potentially be undervalued again, depending on where exactly you, you end up within the spectrum of clinical research.
Donna: Well, I'll keep you posted that's for sure.
Brad: Yeah, no, I'd like to check in, you know, maybe we, uh, touch base again and do do this in a month and see where you're at and get a little bit more sort of real look at, you know, what your search looks like coming from the background that you're from again, then again, I think this is instructive for people because there's a lot of people trying to get in the industry in different ways coming from different backgrounds. So, you know, again, I think the more sort of diverse experiences that, you know, we can share can all, all help us get to where it is that we want to be.
Donna: Thank you. And I really think of is my background is a parallel. I mean, I know what it takes
Brad: Well, I mean, from the outside in, it looks like it all dovetails together in a way that makes you a great fit and a great addition to a team. If you want to set up some sites in Minnesota, then, uh, you know, you can start, started doing some work up there and work together. How's that,
Donna: That sounds like a great idea.
Brad: All right, Donna, where can people reach out to you or where can they find you online? Well,
Donna: I'm on LinkedIn and they can find me there. And my contact information is all underneath there accordingly. So it's the tricky spelling of the last name.
Brad: Yeah, I had to make you say it for me several times to make sure I'm still probably going to say it wrong Sim-an-yet?
Donna: Close Symanietz
Brad: SYMANIETZ .
Donna: Very good.
Brad: See, I still did it. I still, I still messed it up. I might have to edit that out. Well, I will, uh, post all your contact information as well on the notetofilepodcast.com website. So people, uh, have an easy one spot to be able to get your contact information, uh, aside from that, uh, I thank you so much for coming on. Let's uh, maybe get you on the schedule again and see if we can touch base and, uh, kind of follow you throughout this process. If that's something you're open to.
Donna: Yeah. I'm very much open to that.
Brad: Awesome. All right, Donna, thank you so much for coming on and we'll talk again soon.
Donna: Okay. Thank you.
Brad: Thanks.