Episode 23: Adam Brown, ClinArk
Adam obtained his Bachelor of Arts from Wittenberg University in Biology. He currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer at ClinArk and advisory board member at the Wittenberg Institute for Public Humanities and Sciences. Prior to founding ClinArk, Adam spent his entire career developing clinical trial strategies at some of the largest contract research organizations (CROs) in the world. He has a passion for increasing clinical trial awareness and access.
In this episode, we discuss diversity in clinical trials, the importance of building trust, and the role of education and transparency in clinical research.
+Full Episode Transcript
Brad: Hello, and welcome to the note to file podcast collection of interviews, best practices and candid commentary for clinical research sites. I'm your host, Brad Hightower, founder of Hightower clinical, a clinical trial site network providing consulting services, and end-to-end personalized research infrastructure to physicians with no upfront costs. You can learn more at hightowerclinical.com. If you're enjoying note to file podcast, we encourage you to rate review and subscribe to the show so we can continue to provide quality content to a larger audience. I'll show notes, episode transcripts and contact information can be found at NoteToFilepodcast.com before introducing this week's guest. I just want to take a moment to make a quick note about this episode. Uh, it originally was intended to be our first video interview. Uh, however, due to some technical issues, we ended up cutting the video halfway through and just finishing the episode in audio format. So if you notice any sort of awkwardness and lag in the first half of the episode, It was due to technical issues with video. Our guest this week is Adam Brown. Adam obtained his bachelor of arts from Wittenberg University in biology. I currently serves as the CEO at ClinArk and as an advisory board member at the Wittenberg Institute for public humanities and sciences prior to founding ClinArk and has spent his entire career developing clinical trial strategies at some of the world's largest CROs. He has a very clear passion for increasing clinical trial awareness and access. In this episode, we discuss diversity in clinical trials, the importance of building trust and the role of education and transparency in clinical research without further ado, Adam Brown. All right, Adam Brown. Thank you so much for coming on. And oh, like many of my guests who've had a lot of back and forth trying to get this thing on the books. I'm, I'm excited to have you on man.
Adam: Absolutely. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Brad: Aboslutley, You are in Cincinnati is that right?
Adam: So I am actually in Trenton, Ohio, but I am a Cincinnati native. I went to high school in Cincinnati, which is, you know, it's not very diverse. Um, I was, you know, but I went to a school where it was predominantly black, so, you know, that's, that's just the type of the culture of my environment that I come from. But, but yeah, Cincinnati native, I live in Trenton now, which is a little bit outside of, um, I'll say Westchester, which is close to Cincinnati. It's probably about 30 or 40 minutes away, but yeah.
Brad: Gotcha. Gotcha. How do they, how do you feel about LeBron from being from Trenton? That's my question. I'm a huge NBA fan. So Yeah, coming back and leaving and-
Adam: Sometimes you need change, man. Sometimes, sometimes you've got, you need a change of scenery. Uh, so, you know, I can't be mad at him who wouldn't want to go to Cali. I mean, a couple of weeks ago I was, I was shoveling 12 inches, so I wouldn't mind being in Cali right now. Be honest with you.
Brad: Right, right. That's cool. I was just curious. I know that, you know, he's got a lot of, a lot of mixed feelings about him being a broad title back to Ohio though. So you got to give him that.
Adam: Yeah. I, I think he, I think he's going to be able to go forever. I'm convinced probably until he's about 50 at the rate he's going.
Brad: Yeah. He's no kidding is, he's unbelievable. There's no question about that. We're right on, sorry to get off topic there. That's a-
Adam: Oh no, I love- I love basketball too.
Brad: Right on. So I'll say as a, as is customary with all the guests I bring on, I like to just ask a little bit about how you got into clinical research. Kind of tell us your story. It's always interesting to me to hear all the different, you know, sort of diverse ways people got into clinical research.
Adam: So, um, I started- Okay. So I went to college, right. You know, like, like most of us, um, with the college got my degree in bio and you have all these, uh, you know, how it is, you have all these big dreams. When I graduate, you know, I want to make 50K, 60K you know, I had all these dreams Right? Um, Nope. Ended up sleeping on my mom's couch. Uh, and I actually, uh, and worked at a doggy daycare, um, for about three weeks. Right. And I got to a point where I was like, all right, I'm going to get on indeed. And one blast my resume and whoever bites I'm going to the interview, because it can't be any worse than working at this doggy daycare. So I put, I'll put, I'll put, I'll put on my resume and, you know, to make a long story, short Inc research contacted me. And I ended up working there as a site identification specialist. I remember that interview. I, that interview I interviewed like it was, you know, like I was Jordan with the flu man. I was like, I gotta get, I gotta get out of this, um, this daycare, I mean, out of this doggy daycare. Um, but I went in there, they said, so tell, tell us about yourself. I was like, look, I am sleeping on my mom's couch right now.I have to get, I have to get out of this job, but, you know, I got the job. I remember they called me to tell me I actually accepted the job at my old job. So I was, I went into the lunch room and I was like, oh, I got the job. So I immediately wanted to my boss's office and say, I am done here. I quit right then. And there waited about a week or two went to go work at INC research as a site ID specialist. And that's kind of where I found my passion, you know, just feasibility and all that stuff. And from there, it just kind of, you know, I kind of worked my way up to, you know, I worked at different companies. I worked at the site level as well. I've worked Vital Clinica I've worked Lab Pace of all those companies kind of in the feasibility, uh, space. But you know, it really allowed me to find my passion. You know, I didn't know that it was going to be more passion, like many other people, it started out as me, you know, me just, I needed a job, you know what I mean? It literally turned out to be something that I was incredibly passionate about. And then, you know, after working in feasibility, I realized that I was an analyst. So I would work with the numbers and I realize that there were, there was a need, like for, you know, there's a need to get more sites involved in research. I was crunching the data and I'm like, wait, 80% of sites that have done research right? There- They're basically going through the same institutions over and over again, but the site selection and it's, it's terrible. When you look at the, when you look at the data, it's evident that we have to get more sites involved. I wanted to change that. I wanted to impact that. So I started ClinArk, uh, and we started out just really working the site site identification space. That was just something that I love. And now we're doing you in community engagement. We are, we just recently developed a cultural competency training. So we're training investigators, study coordinators on how to be culturally competent when we pretty much design it specifically for whatever study we're we're helping with. But we look at that patient population, we interact with the patients, you know, the community, all that stuff, and really develop trainings that speak to the people that they're going to be interacting with. Um, but it's, it's all really centered around increasing diversity. Our entire model is centered around, you know, increasing diversity, getting more people involved in research and just really spreading the opportunity. But it all started from me needing a job! needing a job, not wanting to work at a doggy daycare. And thank God INC. Research called me
Brad: Well. And again, I think your, your story is like super relatable. A lot of us fall in backwards in a way, and then realize later, like how much we love this industry and how much of an impact we can have on it. And, you know, I love the, you know, your sort of description of what you're doing in ClinArk, it sounds like you're, you're able to sort of a work from the inside out as opposed to, I don't know. I see a lot of CROs and it seems to be more of an outside in a, you know, it's like you said, you're looking at numbers. You don't know, you don't know what you're looking at, but you're dealing with people. You're not dealing with numbers in this industry, you know, that's, that's, uh, I, so I love that approach that you're able to, able to take there. (Absolutely). That's awesome. So are you able to sort of, uh, I guess tell me a little about how ClinArk is a, is able to sort of, again, work more from the inside out. I love that you say you've got a cultural competency. Is that a course? or is that sort of study specific or more, more general? That's something sites can participate in?
Adam: So literally we have a team of experts that we work with and it study specific it's, it's really, it's not even, it could be for studies, it could be whatever, you know, the business and the organization wants to train their people. We will design it based on their needs, but you know, it all starts with, you know, say, you know, you're working in, in Nash, right? We would then literally talk to people that have this, this issue, right. Or this illness understand some of their pain points, understand some of their needs understand their culture because there is a culture amongst people that, you know, that our patients, you know, there, there, there is a culture, um, so understand what comes with helping them, right? And then we turn that into something actionable into a training, into strategies, uh, and really deliver that information, uh, to sponsors or CROs or whoever needs it.
Brad: So you're able to sort of help bake in the more, you know, personal touch. And, you know, there's something I've been saying lately is I feel like clinical research is very much like customer service. It's very personal, you know, we're serving these, these patients. I mean, we're serving these communities, we're serving these patients. It's, uh, it should be more, more personal in that way. So you're able to help sort of bake that into the study itself. So, I think that's awesome.
Adam: Right, right. Um, you know, we've, we've literally helped sponsors develop study names, right? So like we'll help, we'll literally interact with the community and say, what do you all think about this study name so that the community, the patients feel like they've helped along the way. Right? So it's not a surprise once you then go to these people with a study because they've heard of it, they helped shape it. You know? So versus, you know, insight, you know, we, we developed this trial in a silo, right. And then we, here we come with it! And then nobody knows, you know, nobody knows where it came from or you know, haha, sign up! We don't know what, what this is, you know? Um, so, you know, it's, it's more so getting everyone involved and valuing the perspectives of everyone, the scientistic community, and really packaging that up and, and delivering it to, you know, to the sponsors, to whoever needs it.
Brad: Yeah. And I mean, again, I think that's redicuously underrated. I know I work at a site level and I see every day how much education goes in patient education goes in to these trials. Like we're not just asking someone to be in a trial, we're having to educate them about the whole clinical trial process on top of whatever their specific, you know, disease state is or whatever this new medication is or the specific protocol requirements. So all of this is just awesome. Cause it all stacks, you know, it all stacks on top of each other, you include them from the beginning, it makes your study better and better educates the patients. It also helps you develop material. That's more relatable to the people who have that particular issue. So again, this is a, so one of the first like truly practical solutions, I've really heard as far as getting buy-in on the front end from the patient population. You know, we, I mean, we hear a lot of, you know, the buzzwords, but I mean, this is like legit practical, this isn't theory, you know what I'm saying?
Adam: Absolutely. So I know like another piece of this that we don't do that I think is going to be important, but we have, we have to build the trust first is going to be like digital medicine. Right? You know, wearables, all that stuff. So like, we must build the trust first with the communities so that when they, when we then start introducing that stuff, it's not like "no way", you know what I mean? Um, because I, I think, I think some people could be scared. I mean, my, my grandmother, my great-grandmother, I should say, you know, I cheat, she just now started using her debit card.
Brad: Well, th th that's a really good point. I mean, and that's something I don't know that I see addressed a lot, because again, you know, the future decentralized trials, wearables, I mean, that's great, but is that going to create a further divide or just a different type of divide within clinical research? Because, you know, we, we work with a lot of people in rural areas that have flip phones. So even giving them a, an E-diary is a, is a challenge getting that, that data collected, you know, and if we didn't have the personal relationships that we developed with these, you know, these patients, then it would be near impossible to really get any usable data. So I, you know, I, I'm curious to see how that, I mean, on the one hand streamlines things, but also in some ways may create a different type of divide that we're not anticipating, you know?
Adam: Right, right, right. You know, I just, I think, I think it's going to take a combination, you know, I, I don't, we don't have all the answers, you know, we're, we're doing something that is practical, you know, um, that makes people feel involved, that, you know, allows everyone to be involved, no matter your educational level, whatever, you know, even when we engage the communities, we hire people from the communities to help us, you know, so, and, and we train them, you know, GCP training, cultural competency training, they get the same training that, that, you know, we're giving to sponsors. And, you know, so w we're we're, we're actively teaching people about clinical research at the same time, but, you know, it's still, it's a big problem. So we w it's going to take everyone and all of our, all of our ideas, all of our solutions to really, you know, attack the issue. But I will say this, we can't look at it. Like, it's a, um, it's a one size fits all. Or like, it's a, uh, this is a long-term relationship building thing. This isn't like, you know, in three months, will I, you know, what will I, will I have 60 patients? You know? So it's, it really is. You're building that relationship so that you can get to the point where we're no longer having the discussion of people being scared of clinical trials. People were just like signing up if they want to be in it. You know? So that's what we're working towards versus, you know, like you said, it's not practical. You, you have, you really have to build that relationship first because people are scared. People were scared before got into this industry. I, um, I thought medicine was made in the sky. You know what I mean? So I always wonder where it came from. You know, of course I knew, you know, the FDA was involved, you know, but it's just, when you come from, like the community that I come from, like I never heard of clinical trials until I was maybe 20 something. So when I, when I got the job, I had to learn about it. But, but we have to change that, you know, we have to be at high schools introducing this to kids, you know, talking about it to people because we, like you said, we do work in our silos, ClinArk, cannot solve it. We can't do it all, but well, you know, it really does. It really does take a team. You know, it takes the entire industry wanting to change, um, because we, whether we realize it or not, we've created a culture of our own, you know, and we don't let everybody in. So we have to get past that and let people come in and share their perspectives. Even if they're not scientists, you don't let them share their perspectives. Um, because I guarantee you it'll be some value with that.
Brad: Yeah. And I mean, I mean, that's a fair point. There is a little bit of, I think sometimes some, some ivory tower, you know, to things, especially in the academic side where it's, you know, I've worked in academia and, you know, the more we can get out to those, you know, the communities, the better that we'll get and then to speak to your other point. I mean, clinical trials have been in the news a lot lately, especially with, with, you know, COVID situation that we're in and for better or worse. I mean, in some ways that's getting the message out a little bit more about clinical trials. You know, obviously you don't, I don't love to see this sort of like politicalization of, of medicine that, you know, seems to have taken place to some degree, but it's at least getting some awareness out there, which, you know, in some ways can't hurt, if we can sort of use that as a springboard to, to really continue to educate.
Adam: Right. Absolutely. You know, I- 100% agree with that and I think it really takes, uh, like for me, I'll be very transparent before I got to this industry. I was terrified. You know what I mean? Like what I heard about Tuskegee, I was terr- I was one of the, you know what I mean? You know, the liquid coming into the industry and the liquid education can do, like I learned about it, like, you know, I went to college, you know, I learned about the, they let me in, you know, I got to see it. You're so letting people see it and understanding that it's not going to, it may take longer than six months. It may take 12 months, but you have to let people in, you have to let people see the, you know, the screws and everything. That, that, that makes it work. Because, I mean, what do we have the hide? We, you know, that's just what it's going to take you to buildtrust,you know?
Brad: Right. Right. Yeah. No, again, it's like you said, I think it's a longterm relationship building process. And that's what it's going to take is building the relationship. It's not going to be a quick fix, but I mean, I think that's, that's what you're doing right now. That's what you're out there in the communities doing is helping, helping build, pull the veil, pull the veil back, let people see how things work. And I think that, you know, if everybody's doing what they need to be doing, you'd like, you're right. There's nothing to hide. There shouldn't be, people don't need to be scared. I don't blame anyone for being scared. I mean, we still see people saying, I don't want to be a Guinea pig. There's obviously a crazy history of terrible things that have happened. So I can't blame anyone for being cynical or skeptical or apprehensive, but the more, you know, people, groups like ClinArk are out there, uh, educating the communities then puts us just a little bit, a little bit closer a little bit at a time.
Adam: YeahYou know, and I will say this just for our experience with just engaging people from all walks of life, you know, you get some of those comments, you know? No, absolutely not. There are people that are just like not having it. And they're very transparent about that. And you just have to let some of those, you have to, you can't convince everyone, you know, you just, you just can't and it really does take, it's a, it's a, it's a slow process because a lot of people are skeptical. So yeah.
Brad: Yeah. Well, and again, you're, you're, uh, you're not going to convince everybody, but you know, you don't necessarily have to, and everyone's entitled to their, their opinion in one way or another. But again, I think that we still have a big bridge to gap as far as, or a big gap to bridge, rather, as far as that's concerned. So there's, there's a lot of, a lot of work left to be used to be done.
Adam: And also from my experience doing feasibility, I think that we need to spend more time during that process. Like really not, you know, because I don't know if you're familiar with how, like feasibilities are done for clinical trials, but like, it's like, uh, you know, you got two weeks, you got to find data, you pull all these pieces together. You gotta figure out how to put this forward. Hopefully when win the study. And it needs to be more, more thoughtful. Um, I, I think, and needs to be more time invested in understanding, uh, the communities that are going to be involved in their research and also, you know, really understanding the doctors that are going to be participating on this study, you know, not just gathering what they say, but really understanding, understanding the doctors like their personalities, their, everything, you know, because that's gonna, that is going to play a part. That's why the cultural competency is important to, you know, that I can't, you know, and going back to the feasibility part, you know, I was, I said a statistic earlier where it's like, like eight and like 8% of sites have conducted one trial or less or something like that. That's proof that we're going to, first of all, we're going to the same place. And when, when we, when we're introduced with a, with a new doctor, we then say, well, they don't have experience, right? Well, how are we going to get them experience? You know what I mean? We have people that are eager to participate.-How are we going to do that? So, so we have to answer those. We have to answer that question to w we have to get more doctors involved. I know the, you know, the universities are important, they have to be included, but we also have to make sure that these community communities are there. Their doctors are involved in the trial as well, because not everybody can, you know, travel, you know, 30 minutes or an hour to get to a clinical trial. And it's just not, it's just not feasible for most people. You know, I remember when I was a kid, my mom and I, it was just us. We didn't have a car, you know, and we had to walk with our girlfriend. So I can only imagine what it's like to have to go to a clinical. You don't have a car and go to a clinical trial. That's at this university hospital and it's 45 minutes away. Like, do you know how far of a walk 45 minutes is w you have to walk it? you know, not, not a car ride that that could be an hour and a half or something, you know, you never know, but yeah, it's just, we have to really start thinking about all the factors that play for the community. And like I said, think about, you know, the doctors that are really going to, they're going to be interacting with, with these patients, you know, not just selecting them because, you know, they said that you recruit a thousand patients in a month or whatever it is, you know, like really understanding their, their personalities. And if it's going to mesh well with what the community that they're serving, um, I think that's going to be important moving forward as well.
Brad: Yeah. And that's a fair point. I mean, yeah, I've, I'm at a site level, so I've been through hundreds of feasibility processes from the site side and, you know, it is, it is very much more of almost just a business proposition at that point. You know, you're sort of, you know, what are your numbers? Let's get the numbers, let's get the study, we can do it well, you know, we're not really being super thoughtful. And as a result, you end up, you know, getting studies that don't do anything because you are not, you don't have that relationship with the community, or you don't have that particular patient population or a relationship with them. So there's a lot of problems. And, you know, it's a crazy number of sites don't even ever enroll a single patient, or they don't enroll nearly the number they wanted to get. And so you're wasting time and money somewhere that you really don't need to be anyway. So it all ties together. It's not just good for people, it better for business too, you know?
Adam: Right, right. And I think you also, and this is absolutely no shot at doctors. Like they do incredible work. It's just, it's just, you know, Hey, I understand, you know, if I, if I put in a situation where I have to say this number, or I can, I'm not, this is how I, this is how I feed my, you know, feed my team, you know? So it's, it's, it's not, it's not the fault of the doctors. It's just, we all have to be more aware of what, of what we're putting out. You know what I mean?
Brad: Well, and look, there's a lot of great doctors, but it doesn't mean that they're a good researcher, you know, or they're not a good relationship builder. (Right)You can be a great surgeon. You can be a great interventionalist. You can be a great doctor, but that doesn't mean you get, you really get the nuance involved in clinical trials, you know? So that's certainly seen that be the, be the case.
Adam: And you know, that, that could be, Hey, we go through the site, you know, we, um, we survey the sites, you know, during the feasibility for like, actually like actually surveyed the sites, the communities, you know, maybe, maybe this, and then maybe we find out that site, you know, in order to smooth things out, maybe they need a, some type of like, um, you know, host or something in the, in the, in the, in the, you know, in the, um, in the lounge or something that's talking to people, you know, that's asking people how they're doing, you know, just it, we, you know, we just, we just, we just have to, um, make, make clinical research a little more inviting, uh, you made some great points.
Brad: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, uh, you know, moving down from there, what are maybe some best practices or something you would share with, with sort of other people in the industry, uh, you've had a fairly long successful career and a you've you started out on the CRO side, it looks like you've had more experience on the CRO side. It looks like, but what would you sort of share with other people in the industry looking to get better at what they do?
Adam: You know, it, it takes, it takes time, but never stopped learning. Right. Just never stopped learning, you know? Yeah. You, you, you major in bio, you made her major in biology. You're a doctor would maybe, maybe take some time to read a book and sociology, you know, maybe, you know, understand, really try to understand that sometimes we don't know everything and take, take, take that extra time to, you know, maybe an hour a day, learn something new because that's what I've always tried to do, you know, and it's working wonders. Um, you know, that's how I created my company. I wouldn't be able to do half of the stuff that I do now, if I didn't, you know, take a little extra time to learn something because, you know, there's always room to improve, but, you know, I think just never stop learning and try to try to not be, not be scared to accept other people. You know what I mean, like really embrace other cultures and, and try to understand, try to understand their culture versus being like, ah, you know, uh, just, just really try to understand where they're coming from. And I think those, if you do those two things kind of, as a foundation, you'll be good to go. Um, and at least that'll get us on the right course to, you know, make some change in the industry moving forward.
Brad: Yeah. And I think those two ideas fit together. Like, you know, we tend to get sort of a very narrow focus, uh, depending on what's right in front of us or what we studied or what we've are comfortable with. And when you begin to take a more broad approach, you can get a better look, you get a better perspective, you get a bigger idea of what's really going on. And in that way you can start to put pieces together that you couldn't have before, because you didn't, you didn't have that knowledge. You know, you can't, you can't have too much knowledge, you know what I'm saying? So those two things fit together and sort of dovetail, like perfectly, because it's, you know, get out of your head a little bit and get, get out there and see what's, what's going on. It's again, it'll put you in situations and give you opportunities. You would never even knew about, you know?
Adam: Absolutely. I, 100% agree with that. Uh, once, once I, once I started being, you know, patient and started, you know, uh, under trying to understand people where they were coming from, um, because I've been on the receiving end of those cultural misunderstandings, and I've also been, you know, I've been the one that initiated it sometimes, you know, but it was all, like I said, it's all around misunderstanding. You know, it's all just, it's natural for us. You know, when you introduce a stranger to a group of natives, there's naturally going to be friction. Um, so we just have to be understanding of that. Um, in any situation, you know, if you introduce somebody who's not a biologist, they studied their, you know, whatever, and it's 12 biologists over here and they start talking about what they think about science. Their biology is probably gonna look at them like, excuse me, you know? And so it's, it's really, it's, it's really, um, it's all about really being patient and taking the time to understand people's perspective and where they're coming from. And I think that's worked for us, you know, that's worked for us when we're literally talking to the community. Just I don't, I try not to, I try not to be the one that says the most. I just like literally listened to the people, you know, and understand what they're feeling. Um, how can I help? This Doesn't this isn't, you know, about clinical trials? How can I help you? You know what I mean? So, so, you know, it's, it's really that approach that I think we have to start taking.
Brad: I love it. And that's, again, it seems small, but it's, uh, it makes all the difference in the world. Just like you said, when something's new, it can be scary. We'll make it so that it's not new anymore. Get out there, get familiar, get comfortable, you know, and that's only going to serve everyone. It's going to make everyone better and more comfortable and happier. So no I love that. Obviously. I think that's a, I think the things slowly moving that way, you know, we've got you're out there doing, doing the work. So I love that. Uh, (Thank you) tell me, uh, tell me a little bit about, you know, what are some resources or some tips and tricks, something that you use to help you throughout the day. I love to sort of hear about, you know, whether it's a book or a piece of software or something that is sort of, uh, you know, super useful for you that, that helps you in what you do.
Adam: You know, uh, me, me being, uh, I'm, uh, I'm uh, in terms of personality wise, I'm more of the, uh, the vision visionary type of guy. So like, I like to read a lot and that helps me, you know, even stay, keep my stress levels down, you know? Um, I keep all of my books all in my little Amazon little Kindle thing. And I, and I, you know, I'm a big reader and I'm kind of a nerd. I read, I read a lot of textbooks, which is kind of weird. I'm not a novel guy. I like to read just like, just give me the actual stuff. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to read, I like to read, I like to read mainly textbooks and then kind of sprinkle in some novels. But for me, you know, reading is, is kind of the it's, it's everything for me. Um, I really I'm really being reading books and it just helps me decompress, whatever, you know, things are getting crazy. I'll stop forges and just read, or if I need to come up with ideas, you know, reading, reading a lot allows you to connect the dots, you know, across different disciplines and all that stuff. So, you know, it's reading it's in the books guys!
Brad: Yeah, no, I mean, again, that's, that's, that's something, you know, fairly simple for people to do. I, I use audible just because I drive a lot, I've got a long commute, so I'm always listening to a book. Uh (Those are amazing), yeah, right? I started a little like, you know, book club within my company, just for people to share, you know, what they're reading with each other. And you know, it's not about clinical research specifically, you know, it's about, maybe it's just, self-development maybe it's about habit formation. Maybe it's about mindfulness, whatever it is, you know, because again, sometimes the stuff outside of what we do is still important. We're all human beings, you know, and I think all that stuff together makes you a more, more well-rounded person. So you can do your job, you can do your job better. You know, that's, that's what we're all after is how to best help people. All right. Well, Adam, I want to thank you so much for coming on. You have anything, uh, you want to add before we, before we go, where can people find you online?
Adam: Oh, so you can find me on LinkedIn, uh, and Twitter. Um, everything else is my personal account. Don't follow me on those. I'm just kidding. No, but I, yeah, you can, you can follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter. Those are where I'm most active. Yeah. And, you know, before we go, I would just like to say, you know, embrace everyone, uh, and you know, never stop learning. And you know, we're all in this together and let's try to work towards a common goal and, and it's okay to be competitive, but you know, at some point we all have to hug each other and figure this out. Uh, so, uh, let, let let's work towards that.
Brad: Awesome. I couldn't agree more, Adam, thank you so much for coming on.
Adam: Thank you, it was a pleasure.
Brad: Thank you for listening to the Note to File podcast, all show notes, episode transcripts, and contact information can be found at notetofilepodcast.com. And again, please, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. Thanks again for listening.